Circa Magazine
No 13 Nov/Dec 1983
ALASTAIR MACLENNAN
Interviewed by
Nicholas Stewart
This interview
is based on a set of predetermined questions which attempt to enlarge
upon a broad spectrum of statements and actions by the artist, rather
than a discursive inquiry into specific issues raised by the work. The
final draft has been amended
by the artist.
Alastair MacLennan
was born in Scotland in 1943, studied in Dundee, then completed graduate
study at the School of The Art Institute of Chicago, U. S. A. He taught
at Nova Scotia College of Art from 1970 to 1972. He is now based in
Belfast, and was a founder member of Art and Research Exchange. At present
he is senior course tutor on the Ulster Polytechnic M. A. Fine Art programme.
His performance/installations are being shown in Britain and Ireland,
Europe, America and Canada.
NS.
A transition from traditional painting to conceptual, installational
and 'live art' was something of a common occurrence in the contemporary
art practice of the 1960's. Nevertheless, the change in your work during
that period seems to have been a major shift, not just in your art work,
but indeed in your whole life's direction. Can you say something about
what precipitated this?
A MacL. When
I taught at Nova Scotia College of Art and Design I found if I talked
about new ideas to students, there was a tendency - if they felt these
views were coming from recent Art History - for the significance of
such concepts to be nullified in their minds by the authority of print.
It was more immediate and possibly more contextually appropriate, to
communicate directly and this precipitated my moving into an area loosely
termed 'body art', to bring first hand creativity and 'process' into
teaching. There was a synthesis between this development in my own art
and the innovative teaching context which pertained at Nova Scotia College
at the time.
NS. Following
on from that, I want to ask you about the period you spent in the Vancouver
Zen Centre. Zen was a heavy influence on some of the painting movements
in America at, and before, that time. Your adoption of it seems wholly
different from those movements, more integrated and all-embracing. What
led you to that particular discipline and was Zen, in particular, in
anyway a generative source for your first performance work?
A MacL. Yes
it was, to answer the last part of your question. While I was an M.F.A.
student at the Art Institute of Chicago, towards the end of the course,
I became interested in trying to make physical structures which would
have no materiality but which would give the impression or 'feeling'
of 3D geometric forms in space*. I was told by tutors this was very ambitious
but they didn't think it possible to make them. I became interested
in implications behind the search to produce these works and pursued
the concern further. It led me to Zen literature and I followed up this
line of enquiry. *not holograms
NS. Did you
make any visual art during that period?
A MacL. I did.
I made a range of works; drawings, paintings, prints, physical structures
and 'live' art. At a later stage, over a period of one to two years,
I made no art in the traditional sense, while a Zen student at the Centre
in Vancouver and in the Zen Centre at Mount Baldy, Los Angeles. During
that period I became intensely engaged in the daily rigours of Zen practice.
I realized the emphasis on all aspects of one's waking existence was
very similar to the quality of the attention one gives one's regular art
activity, be it painting or sculpture etc. Aesthetic considerations
were in operation, though not manifesting as visual art work.
NS. From 1973
until relatively recently, much of your performance work was carried
on outside the 'normal' art gallery system. What was the primary motivation
in carrying out this work?. Have you now completely stopped this kind
of outdoor activity in favour of using the gallery space?
AMacL. To the
final part of the question I would say no, I haven't, though in the
recent past I've been using gallery spaces and places indoors which
are not gallery spaces. One recent work was made in a hospital wing
in Switzerland. Part of my concern is to produce work which avoids several
familiar devices we associate with conventional art. We tend to fall
into well worn paths(ruts) regarding what art is, what it can and
can't be, what 'materials' should be used in the making etc. I wish to
directly emphasise human life as the main vehicle conveying issues at
the root of all art, be it in or out of 'art' spaces, anywhere.
NS. How did
you see your relationship with people on the street? Did you want to
become directly involved with them or did you simply want to be there?
A MacL. I wanted
to 'be' there. The motive was to 'make a stand' for creativity. Because
most of us have been trained and conditioned, not educated in principles
of creativity, my work no doubt seemed strange to many. These works
dealt (mainly) with the process of harmonizing opposing forces within
the self. This is something not many seem concerned with (or know the
value of). I wanted to produce images which alluded to what was beyond
being pulled hither and thither by superficial, though gravely dangerous,
cause/effect relationships we daily engender.
NS. I read in
one of your statements that in your work you attempt to simultaneously
repel and attract people ...
A MacL. I meant
I'm interested in the discrepancy between our ideals concerning what
we live through and the actuality of this, and in providing images which
bring both of those together, sometimes in a synthetic though contradictory
way. Very often we try to escape from what we're experiencing and are
manipulated by what we'd like to be doing elsewhere, rather than deal
with our real situation here and now. In doing this we don't come to
terms with our life. I would like to show aspects of living which are
raw and problematic, but also convey means to overcome escapist attitudes
and negative forces we allow to infiltrate our lives. We must face up
to self-made contradictions, not run from them.
NS. Reading
of the work of Marina Abramovic/Ulay in a recent Artforum I was made
aware of certain similarities of concern. Ulay describes motionlessness
as "the best thing I have done. It synthesizes everything. It is the
homework". What is the function for you of that aspect of your work
which involves the maintenance of motionlessness?
A MacL. It's
central. In the early works, I was attempting to first of all still
the body and then the mind, to harmonize opposites. In the more recent
work I'm attempting (amongst other things) to still the mind in motion.
This is more difficult, more complicated, but it moves towards the situation
whereby the practice is more flexible and might well 'disappear' from
being distinct or separate from everyday living, except in terms of
'quality of perception' of 'live' relationships.
NS. At the time
you were carrying out the starkly simple and direct performances of
the mid/late seventies, you also seemed to feel the need to 'stylise'
your daily image to one of almost regimental austerity. You now wear
only black and you also shave your head. Can you outline the thinking
that led to this paring down?
A MacL. Yes,
When I came to Belfast and saw the work young artists were doing, I
felt I would like to show different ways of creating so that people
didn't feel in order to be an artist one had to use brushes and paint,
or carve to make sculpture. One could carve or chisel the self rather
than blocks of stone or marble. In the long run, if not the short, this
would at least be as sensible a mode of expressing principles underlying
art as would be the case using traditional means. While making these
works, I found by wearing one colour, bodily movement or stasis could
be read more singularly. For this reason I adopted the one colour/non
colour, black. As I was doing these performances weekly in the first
years, and as the underlying philosophy was to engage art as a living
process, it became natural, by extension, to wear this 'colour' daily.
Art as a living process can become more emphasised if carried over from
performance into everyday life (and vice versa). Shaving the head and
leaving the beard is the coming together of opposites in a perceptual
twist. It signifies the fusion of oriental and occidental influence
in one.
NS. Is there
a danger of such an appearance being interpreted in the wrong manner?
A MacL. There
can be, as a result of the horrific skinhead phenomenon.
NS. And also
because of the predominance of highly stylised imagery in various aspects
of the culture, such as in the uniforms adopted by different groups.........
A MacL. Fashions
come and go. What we stand for outlasts what's on view in streets.
NS. Since 1980
you have shown more drawn images. The most recent show I am aware of
was at the Octagon Gallery in Belfast in 1982. Is this a revitalisation
of earlier drawn and painted work or a completely fresh attempt to deal
with that medium?
AMacL. Thinking
of how art history has been structured in our century, there has been
an emphasis on 'progress', breakthrough and innovation. To a certain
extent it has misled artists. Progress doesn't go from A to B or C to
Z, but takes on multi-layered spiralling conditions. Young artists in
the late '60's and '70's felt that to make progressive work they had
to leave behind certain forms and thus wouldn't allow themselves to
use traditional means. As a younger artist I was affected by this (somewhat).
I now feel I can work in any medium whatsoever, in any way, as it seems
appropriate.
NS. You often
employ a rectilinear or grid pattern as a basis for work. This was most
noticeable in the Orchard Gallery performance, Mirror, of 1980. In other
pieces, such as those at ARE, Belfast, in 1980 and the Acme Gallery,
London, in 1981, the format was more 'organic', hinting at cycles and
systems in the realms of nature. Are you aware of any dichotomy in this?
A MacL. Yes,
I am, and am interested in not moving towards the one and excluding
the other. More and more I feel art has to be inclusive, not exclusive,
of contradictions in living. I do think natural cycles are 'heart-beats'
for art, though we mustn't exclude the man-made, often over-rationalized
structures we are presently living with, but 'persuade' those who build
them to learn more from cycles in nature, and find ways to embrace both,
hopefully achieving the right or true balance between the intuitive,
intellectual and emotional sides of our collective psyches.
*NS. Can I quote
some of your statements: "There are no innately artistic means". "A
real artist makes art the whole of his life, not a part". "Aesthetics
alone are a surface affair". "There's no art higher than that of ordinary
everyday living". I chose those particular quotes because they seem
to highlight what I would call the holistic nature of your art practice.
However, it seems to me that this philosophy of holistic art is in direct
opposition to the values and ideology practised and encouraged within
the art college system. What I wish to know is, how you personally reconcile
these opposites within the context of your teaching practice?
A MacL. I regard
teaching as one limb of my art practice. I view it as creative activity,
and very important. I don't try to contain my ideas of art in the teaching
structure, rather, I contain the teaching structure within my overall
attitude to art. If a painting student needs to make a better painting,
my job is to be a 'mirror' in which the student sees his or her reflection,
not mine. I must therefore be clear. I do likewise for a sculpture student,
or someone doing performance or installational work. The Art College
where I teach does not as yet have a holistic approach to art education.
Consequently, the more radical works I wish to make, I execute elsewhere.
NS. Do you believe
the present day art education system can change?
A MacL. Yes.
I'm an optimistic realist. No doubt there'll be opposition at many stages
on the way, but one can't deny evolution. Dinosaurs die out.
NS. In a statement
of 1980 you said that, "We have been educated to analyse relationships
within arbitrary fragments of whole systems, but not to experience underlying
unities within these. We conceive of freedom as a relative condition
dependent on positions within political, social and economic structures.
This freedom is not real". I feel that the conception of freedom referred
to is real but very seriously limited. Can you elaborate on the kind
of freedom you are conceiving?
AMacL. I think
what is required is a total revolution of our education institutions.
Most people, even in art colleges, are not being creative. I find this
remarkable. Simply to use tools associated with creativity does not
mean that one is engaged in creativity in any real, dynamic sense. I
see no country in the world, as yet, which is free, hardly any educational
systems which are truly creative, so it's quite natural to see everywhere
only fractured similitudes of freedom. This is one of the direct results
of a lack of holistic thinking in all aspects of education. We study
arbitrarily, we analyse arbitrarily, we make arbitrary relationships
and we are fearful of what we don't know. We are not free. Real education
should make people free, not only place them in jobs; current education
doesn't even do this. Apart from jobs what we really need in this age
of nuclear immanence is for international politics to transmute from
'sovereign state' politics to 'holistic world' politics with attendant
pooling of world resources. In the present nuclear age, without such
politics, no sovereign state is free.
NS. Are you
in sympathy with Joseph Beuys's anthropological art where everyone is
seen as an artist? Do we need to distinguish between visual art and
art as conceived of by Beuys, as being the most essentially human characteristic?
A MacL. I sympathise
with his attitude, yes. My own feeling concerning "everyone an artist"
is that we have to take this much deeper and further. It's not so much
that each person is or can be an artist but that each person already
IS art. The problem is, most don't realize this, and consequently don't
assume the responsibility it brings. Art to me is the resolution of
inner and outer conflict and that pertains to every sphere of human
activity in all aspects of daily life. The problem is to live this,
not talk it. Words are easy.
NS. Up until
1982 your performances contained no overt political or social references
though perhaps they existed on a more subtle plane as a felt response.
Since then, however, you seem to have been including more and more references
to political and social issues. Given your definition of art as "skill
in action where skill is the resolution of conflict", does this new work
reflect more strongly the second part of this definition?
A MacL. Perhaps.
Where conflict is, is a good place in which to resolve issues, as much
as one is able to within one's art and life, for oneself and hopefully
for those whom one meets and touches. It's easy to use political issues,
social issues, issues of any sort, when one's not in the situation one's
'working' from. It's different from actually being in that situation
and trying to effect change in as direct a manner as possible.
N S. Your performances
strongly emphasise a disciplined, restrained and meditative form of
behaviour. In your more recent work - with a strengthening political/social
dimension - this creates an interesting tension of opposites. Political/social
action is usually much more demonstrative. Do you foresee, or at least
can you say what you understand, of a more expressive mode developing
in your live work?
AMacL. What
one doesn't want to do is to fall into pitfalls associated with social
realist art and its clichés, although one admires the motives
and work of certain practitioners within the idiom.
The specific
'form' my evolving live works will take I can't as yet indicate. They
are ahead of me. I can't say how overt or covert they'll be (in political/social terms). One can be political in art without waving slogans.
Some artists regard their work as political but while politics seems
to be their subject matter it is often totally neutered by the 'containing'
nature of the context it operates within, i.e. art galleries and museums.
If an artist uses political content, is really serious about it, and
above all wants the work to be politically effective, he or she should
seriously consider altering the whole context of operation from the
art world to the public arena of hard core politics, to avoid falling
between two stools, i.e. producing work which on the one hand may well
be aesthetically inadequate, and on the other, preaching to the converted.
NS. In your
work during the past year you have been employing an increasing number
of objects, seemingly for their symbolic connotations. A pig's head
or snout has turned up again and again. What specific value, symbolic
or otherwise, does this contain within the context of these performances?
A MacL. I'm
interested in the concept, not just the concept, but the actuality
of victims in life, and to a certain extent a past interest (and a current
one) is in the role of creator as part victim or scapegoat within the
mediocracy of society. I sense mutual temporality with animals which
co-exist with us, and use slices or cuts of their life in death-death
in life, as part of my performance/installations to stress areas of
inter-identity, notions of death, transmutation and transformation.
The holistic approach I'm involved with can utilize fragmentation, slicing
and carving up of mentality, as ingredients within the wounding-healing
relationship I wish to convey. There are metaphors which can be drawn,
but I don't prescribe specific meanings which could deny interpretations
made by observers. What I do wish to convey is an archetypal core of
meaning within each presentation.
NS. In your
most recent work, Healing Wounds, is this trend towards complex metaphoric,
symbolic associations continued?
A MacL. Yes.
There are complexities implied, though the physical structures themselves
are very simple. I remember reading a statement once which said, 'the
simpler a unit of familiarity is for the explanation of situations other
than itself, the more assured is its survival'. I feel this is appropriate
in visual terms also. It's like finding a common denominator whereby
one can relate a series of disparate numbers, fractions and parts.
NS. The title
of this work Healing Wounds seems to be more biased towards a positive
affirmation of life than perhaps I was aware of in earlier work. Do
you see this as constituting a change?
A MacL. Possibly,
though if we look at the title there's ambiguity involved. If we regard
Healing as the noun then Healing is wounding. If we regard Wounds as
the noun, then the emphasis is on healing. Throughout the work I incorporate
controlled ambiguity and paradox. The attitudes I hold tend towards
healing: healing oneself first then what is 'outwith' the self.
NS. Is an ecological
understanding of culture important for your work?
A MacL. Nurture
the root-stem and blossom follows. As well as ecology of natural environment
there is ecology of mind and spirit. Each is a layer of the other, interfused,
three in 'one'. The challenge for tomorrow is to live this out. Already
we're late. Time we have is not so vital as time we 'make'. Time is
now.
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